New Car Rebates and Incentives - What's Dealer Cash?

  An important reason to explore new car incentives and rebates on your own is because of a rebate which is not known by all consumers. It is referred to as dealer cash. The difference between this rebate vs. any other cash rebates on a list of incentives is that it can be given at the dealers discretion. A car dealer can choose to give away all or some of this money or none at all. Any of this rebate that is retained by dealer from a car deal goes straight to their profit. Now some stores are real up front about them and roll them into sales prices and run an add campaign that way but I can tell you there were plenty of times I would block it out and act like it didn't even exist if there was one. Pretty crappy of me huh? It's the cold hard truth though, I won't say I was proud of it. If you don't research your incentives before going in to the car dealer at least make sure you bring dealer cash up when discussing new car pricing. You might have to prod and pry but it is likely they will come clean pretty quickly if there is any dealer cash to give. If they are smart the embarrassment and bad word of mouth won't be worth it to them. I am going to go out on a limb here and say most dealers are not trying to retain this money like they used to because the Internet has made the car buying experience far more transparent than it has ever been. Knowing what it is and if it exists on the particular car you are buying though is still absolutely necessary to ensure you are getting the best possible deal you can be. Let me make your car shopping experience easy now by sharing a link to all of the car incentives available in your region.

>>>>>New Car Rebates and Incentives<<<<<

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Valuable Car Buying Tip - Don't make a pest of yourself

  If there is one car buying tip that I can give that is going to hold true anywhere it is to not make a pest of yourself. If you have already read through my glossary of car dealership terms. This is where the strokes, yanks, squirrels, and spooks come out to play. Don't put yourself in this category because a good salesman doesn't forget shit! I sure didn't.

  It's no secret that a car salesman is paid on commission. Their time is literally money and that is how they look at it. Now is it okay to go in and work some numbers to go home and sleep on it afterwords? Absolutely. It's when you repeatedly show up on a weekly or monthly basis to expect that "things have changed." At any store I worked at there was always a notorious group of people who did this. I never could understand this demographic of people.  Their customer loyalty is usually terrible. When I say customer loyalty I mean they wouldn't even ask for the salesman they previously worked with. This is just flat out rude and bad etiquette. Unless you had a salesman that was truly a creep. I wouldn't ever recommend doing this. Moves like this will get you remembered by all of the staff very quickly and when you do truly want some help and you are ready to buy they are going to scatter like mice. Now you're thinking "well if they want my business they will help me." Yeah ok, go in with that attitude and let me know where that gets you. You have to remember that those salesman are still your liaison between you and the manager. Salesman are humans with a patience threshold just like anyone else. If you have been in periodically over months and have talked to 3 salesman. I as a salesman would have known there is no money to be made off of this person and I wouldn't want to help them even for the lousy hundred bucks I would get for it. Worse yet, if you had already dealt with someone else the odds are I would be splitting that lousy "mini" deal with another associate. Further taking away any incentive for me to assist them.

No One Likes a Pest

  I am going to give you a real example of one guy that stands out in my mind over the years from selling cars. I was working at the biggest Toyota store in town. Actually one of the higher ranking stores in the Chicago Region. This dude was such a repeat offender that we had all affectionately named him Tacoma Bob. Anytime Tacoma Bob pulled up out front you could expect to hear cracks in the showroom like "oh great, what's this spook want?" I was the first unlucky son of a bitch to work a deal with him. He owned a decent old 4x2 Ford ranger he was real proud of and wanted ungodly money for. He was wanting to trade it in for a new Toyota Tacoma. I spent a few hours with this quirky old fart just to be $4000 away from a car deal in the end. When you are selling a new car at invoice and giving the most for their trade you can there is little hope at this point with a spread like that. The guy was simply unrealistic. However, he would come in every few weeks or few months and yank someone else's chain. Hell if I still had the guys paperwork I would pull the new unlucky salesman aside if he didn't know who this guy was already and warn him about what the guy expected. After Tacoma Bob did this a few times just about every sales associate (about 20 of us) knew who he was and what he was up to. None of us would go talk to him anymore if he came in. We ignored him until he left. If he did snag one of us. We would just say "haven't you been in here before, who were you working with?" Once he finally realized we were onto him. He stopped showing up. Maybe someone else earned his business. To that we could only say "thank God and good riddance!" My point is that even if he did eventually buy he made such a nuisance of himself that we didn't give one shit where he bought a car. My manager didn't care either because he saw it as someone just needlessly tying up his sales staff's time. The old saying that "the customer is always right" loses it's luster if you make a pain in the ass of yourself.

  I wanted to share that story with you because I don't want you to be this person. Chances are that if a store has really taken the time to work some numbers with you and "walks" you in the end. They have put their best foot forward and let you leave with a figure they are comfortable with you shopping them against. Car dealers don't like to let money walk out the door. So if they do, there is likely very little in it for them at this point. The fact is. Deals don't get better over time. If there is a trade-in involved it will only get worse. Trade-ins depreciate by the DAY. You could also lose some factory rebate cash on a new car if you let things spill over into the next month and they take those rebates away. I will say about the only instance where you are going to see things get better on an old car deal is if you are on a new car that sees better incentives down the road or if you have had your eye on an aged pre-owned unit that they desperately need to unload.

  The most important points to take from this article are as follows. Deals will not get better over time unless you run into a few of the factors I mentioned in the last paragraph. Salesman will remember your face better than you think. Always ask for the same salesman. Doing otherwise is a blatant form of disrespect at a car dealership. Understand that "walking" a customer is a good sign that a store has done the best they can. Hanging out at car dealerships and not buying cars will gain you notoriety as a stroke and you will only be remembered as a liar and not a buyer. This is a very simple car buying tip anyone can follow. Trust me on this.

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The Dealership Fleet Manager

  I want to talk briefly about a car dealership's fleet manager. I will go right out on a limb and say that the fleet manager at a car dealership may be one way to cut through some red tape at a car dealership. Sometimes you may be able to find out who this is by looking through a store's website but may be easier to find by making a phone call.

  Who is this guy or gal? Well it is a designated person or persons at a dealership who for the most part sell multiple vehicles to businesses or other elite folks the store has dealt with for many years. The truth is. They can sell to you just as well. It's one of those ask and you shall receive things. I will warn you that the results could vary greatly from store to store. Notice they don't make a big effort to let the public know they exist, and for good reason.

  Will you get a better deal by going through one. Maybe, not by light years though if you do. The truth is if the consumer has done their homework (and most do anymore). They will get just as good of a deal on the sales floor. Whether it is a fleet purchase or not. A dealer can only go so low on a car. New cars are ADVERTISED at or a few hundred above invoice pricing all the time now. With that said. Given all of the invoice figures broadcasted online for the world to see. Most stores have already pulled their pants down on new car prices so you can still expect to buy that new car you want for around invoice just like you would from a fleet manager. I can tell you right now that as a former Internet Manager the competition is so stiff out there anymore that the deals I gave on new cars were every bit as good as a fleet manager. I would not be surprised if the fleet manager and Internet Manager were not the same person at a lot of stores anymore. It would only make sense.

  What you can expect to not get from a fleet manager is world class service. I personally dealt with a fleet manager at one store and he was also our General Manager. He was busy a lot and I could tell the fleet sales were a bittersweet burden to him. Most of which were sold over the phone and when they showed up to get their car it was referred to as a courtesy delivery. At which they were practically thrown the keys and waved goodbye to. Perhaps this is exactly what you want though. My advise. If you want to go this route. Do yourself a favor and know what the hell you want before you stop in or call. This person does not want to pop cars open all day long , let alone show or test drive any.

  I wanted to mention the fleet manager because I was astounded at how many sites claim this is the best way to buy a new car. If you are a construction company and need ten trucks, by all means. NOT as an individual though. I want you to have a look at this informational site I found on buying cars. The gentleman claims to be a former general manager at a car dealership and goes on to say blogs like mine are bunk and the easiest way to buy a car is through the fleet manager. However, he quickly proceeds to tell me to buy his $30 money saving "system" and he will guarantees to save me $5k if I buy it. Ok what? You tell me right out of the gate that the best way to buy a new car is from a feet manager.......but buy your system? You lost me. The guarantee fascinates me as well. How in the hell is anyone going to prove they DIDN'T save $5k? I love how he plays the "role" of the saint as far as car buying tips goes too. If he truly was a general manager then he is obviously trying to replace that six figure income he once had somehow. He has just chosen to do it $30 at a time. Still "sellin'" aren't we? I decided to call him out simply based on the needless ball busting he is throwing my way in his video. Is my blog ad supported? You're damn right it is. The difference is, I GIVE AWAY what he is selling. Running ads on a website is no crime, selling information online that is already free should be. I lost a few minutes of my life listening to all of the incoherent bullshit this guy had to say as he was glancing down looking at his script on his desk and swallowing uncomfortably. I am going to go as far to say he probably was never a general manager anywhere. That's a pretty lucrative position to be in to just leave and try to match the potential earnings from home selling information. I just want you to keep your 30 bucks. All the helpful information you need to save money on a car purchase can be found on my blog or others like mine.

  Just for fun I am going to give you a taste of what things are really like at the dealership. As I mentioned before my General Manager was the fleet manager at one of the stores I worked for. If I wasn't selling a car, I was greeting customers at the door looking for an up. Frequently, people would come in looking for the General Manager and I could just about bet on how he would react to each one. If I were to have went to his office and told him someone was here to see the fleet manager the conversation would go something like this. Cover the kid's eyes. This is going to get ugly. "Who the fuck is it!?" he would say. I usually got a name and would have then said "John Public, he asked for the fleet manager." He would then have probably said "well ok, am I supposed to know this person? Did they say if they had an appointment? I don't know who the fuck they are!" I would have said "They didn't mention it." He then would have said "well I don't have time for this shit, he can sit his ass down and buy a fucking car from a salesman just like everyone else. Tell him to have a seat and I will go out in a minute and say hi." Which he would, and then tell the customer he will take care of them on the numbers and turn him over to a salesman. So there you have it. That is the type of magnificent scenario you can come to expect if you go asking for a fleet manager. People playing hot potato with your ass.


  In closing, the fleet manager could be a way for you to get a good deal on a new car. It is no magic bullet though. There is NO magic bullet to buying a car. I don't particularly care for any claims that there is. The information I provide is to merely give an edge. The keyword being edge. Whatever you do. Don't beat a salesman down to nothing and ask for the fleet manager to see what he can do. You may be disappointed to find it's not any better than your salesman's last offer was. Why? Because every one who can sell a car in the building is still pulling their best price from the same place, upper management. Not only that. A move like that is likely to draw up a lot of disgust and get you taken with a grain of salt. The fleet manager is there if you want to go that route, however I do not endorse this for the sake of good service. Walking through the door asking for the fleet manager as a random customer buying one car is going to send out a warning shot and rub everyone wrong real quick in my opinion. If there was anything we hated at the store it was someone coming in acting like a big shot, when they weren't.

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Bait and Switch - Lost Art? Hell no

  Bait and switch is an age old term most of us have at least heard when it comes to sales. In a literal sense it for the most part tells it all. A store uses a product in their advertising with an enticing price that they either have one of  or never did have any to begin with, and up sells you when you get there. For example : Acme Chevy is running a special in the paper for new $20k Malibus. So you drop your world to head down to the store to only find that the advertised car is a base model no one in the world wants and they are of course out of anyway. So the salesman then says " well since you are here, would you at least like to take a look at a few?" Depending on how annoyed you are at this point you may or may not. Just a heads up if you are going to look at a "price leader" car. This is the kind of shuffling you can expect at the dealership. I cannot tell you how many times I went to my manager with a newspaper ad and said "where is this car?" Only to get a response that we no longer had any or it was the turd on the lot with roll up widows and no radio we had in inventory for 9 months.

Buying a car should not have to be like this

  This tactic is not simply limited to advertising though. A salesman can do it to you on the lot and on the spot. You tell Mr. Salesman you would like a used Camry for around $15k. So he then looks at his price sheet scratching his head even though chances are he is fully aware of what he is doing. He says he has a few that might work. He may then proceed to show you the two most unflattering examples he has in stock with every intention to disappoint you. Then just as you are about to leave because they are not showing you what you want, your salesman says there is one he forgot all about. "It's a few years older than you are wanting but it has so many more options than the others did, for the same money as the others." After the disappointment you just went through seeing the other cars, this one sounds like a breath of fresh air at this point. You have been made to feel like your expectations may have been too high when you came in so now you are willing to take some concessions on year and miles versus some extra features. Now this late model cherry he is showing you may be a great car and it may even be a great price. There is just a good chance there is a particular reason he wants you to buy THAT car. His paycheck is the reason of course. So if you are ever on the lot and a salesman seems to have an obsession with a particular car it is for the sake of his paycheck and not for the sake of you getting the most for your money usually. If you are ever being switched from new to used, bear in mind that new car commissions are minimal to a salesman these days. I will be perfectly honest in that I hated selling them in the end of my career. I could make 1000% more on a used car all day long.

  Make sure you get the car you set out for. Don't let a salesman pick the car out for you. If they are trying to you can almost bet some bait and switch is going on. You have to stick to your guns on this one. I have seen some pretty brazen salesman literally stuff someone in a car I could tell they were apprehensive about, to only see them come in the next day after a night of sleep with regrets. At that point, I hate to say. It's too late.

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Keyword : Auto Sales - Which brings me to my next lesson

  I wanted to do a bit of an experiment. I write this blog and I want to drive traffic to it I will be honest. So, I chose a highly global searched keyword of which I thought may bring the type of reader to my site I desire. One like you who may be interested in buying a car. In this case I chose the keyword(s) "auto sales." I wanted to see who was on top of google for this and what they had to offer. I was surprised to see it was a used car dealership in Ocala Florida. Kudos to them!  Prestige Auto Sales is the store and I want you to check out that link. Auto Sales is a very general term and and while it may not be very beneficial to them to rank so high on a global level , they're still rockin' it.


  Now before I get started I did not write this article to deter anyone from going Prestige Auto Sales AT ALL! I wrote this article based on this store to shamelessly leech on to some of that fantastic SEO they have going for themselves and because they just so happen to be first, and they just so happen to give me something to write about, which is one of the first things I learned about selling someone a car. That is finding "common ground" with the buyer. While there is nothing unethical or even insincere about this tactic. Remember that which it still is, a tactic. You see one of the first things I would look for in the first few minutes in talking with a customer was any little thing I possibly had in common with this person. Whether it be a hobby we shared, a belief we shared, or just something we were both passionate about I could resort back to any time I needed. If it ever turned out we knew the same people, oh man that was one of the best. Connected through friendship can help earn trust quickly. The purpose of this is to side track or slow the customer down and try to gain their trust. Once I discovered any common ground with the customer I would use it to "mow over" or avoid anything I simply didn't want to talk about or reveal too much. For example : Jane and John Doe start asking me a bunch of questions about what their interest rates are going to be when they get into the finance office. I then say I will ask a finance director the next time they walk by and quickly ask about their dogs again to which they so eagerly told me about before since I told them I loved dogs. Jane and John then tell me about their dogs for five minutes and poof, the finance manager is ready for them now. I bought myself five minutes and didn't have to answer their question, leaving everything on the table for the finance manager to do his thing. It really is not a salesman's job to quote any finance rates but I just wanted to give an example of  how common ground can be used to divert a buyers attention. Now let's get back to Prestige Auto Sales and I will explain what they have to do with this example.

  Prestige Auto Sales has a very attractive easy to use website. However, by merely skimming the home page I quickly found that these folks are using the common ground of family values. Pictures of the family to let Central Florida know we are "just like you." This is where we all say "awwwww" and get the warm and fuzzies inside and quickly think "this guy would never screw me over." If the family picture isn't enough, upon further looking through the site you will learn they are NASCAR and NFL followers. Further scroll down the home page though and you will find a video of one of Joel Osteen's sermons. POW! These folks went right for the jugular of Southern marketing! Now if you know anything about the south. God is king. I live in Illinois and visit family in Florida. One thing I know for sure. Church on Sunday is quite a bit more of a necessity to the Southerners. Jesus and God are endlessly displayed on billboards in the south to promote about everything besides a strip club. Then again who knows on that one. I think the use or religion is a pretty low way of promoting a business though. That's just an opinion of mine. However, from a marketing standpoint it is very effective and yes I even hate to say, is probably working well for them. If there is a heaven or hell though I think it would be a sure ticket to the latter of the two.

  So before you have even set foot on this lot. You know that the owner of Prestige Auto Sales is a loving Christian man (we're assuming) with a wife and two girls at home to support. Crap, who wants to haggle with this guy? After all. He looks so nice. He looks like such a great family man. He trusts in God. God......dishonesty.......God.......dishonesty. We have been led to believe the two cannot be found in the same place. That is what makes it such a great gimmick. This guy probably gets little resistance from any of his fellow church goers out of fear of insult on their behalf.

  I personally witnessed the effectiveness of this marketing strategy with a gentleman I used to sell with. He was a middle age man. He had even attended bible college (which he quit to sell cars of all things). He went to church every Sunday and was very active in his church. He even prayed on the phone with his wife every day at 9 AM for a half an hour. Needless to say he repeatedly knocked people's blocks off on pen and paper. He was one of the most successful salesman we had. I always attributed it to his kind, harmless, and even biblical aura. Once you knew what the guy was all about, you didn't want to offend him. You didn't want to hurt his feelings. You didn't want to ever argue with him. My point is it REALLY set the stage for how people acted toward him. I am not a religious person and he even found common ground with ME! Not many people want to argue or debate with a man of God. Heck I even found myself  considering putting on the same act, not that this guy was putting on an act (it just happened to work in his favor), but just never had the balls to go for it.

  The moral of this whole story is to put your blinder's on when it comes to this kind of stuff. It's purpose is psychological warfare and is only meant to give you that feeling inside like they are your buddy. Never mind if your salesman went to school with your uncle. Never mind if you both have a buddy that races motorcycles. Never mind that Christ is both of your saviors. Good deeds don't pay mortgages, profits do. Just don't let them use these tactics to make you feel TOO comfortable. Laugh and joke, just don't let it throw you off of your A game.

  In closing I hope the folks at Prestige are good people and do treat people right. Although I don't believe in selling anything in the name of God. I wanted to make the point that a dealer really holds no discretion when it comes to finding common ground and earning a potential buyer's trust. I don't think using them for my example is any more ruthless than when they posted the Joel Osteen link on their homepage.

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Choosing a Salesman

  As I have mentioned before I think that the Internet Sales department is a good way to cut through a lot of red tape but then again maybe you saw his picture online and he looks like an asshole that makes too much money. So you want someone else. 

Beware of this much "Ice" on any salesman's hand

  A lot of dealerships anymore are going to have a website. Many now will list their roster of employees and may even list a little information about each. Take a look through each one of them. A picture is worth a thousand words. If there is a salesman of the month listed you might want to stay away from him. He didn't get that title by helping to keep the lot look good and lined up that month. You might want to find the "new guy." Chances are the younger, newer guy is more afraid to talk to you then you are to him. In this case he will be just following his manager's lead and it will be more like you just buying a car from a manager. It was the older veterans who usually consistently got high gross profit deals. They're sharp as a tack and are great at tailoring any conversation to earn trust. I worked with one old timer who smoked cigars all day and smelled like a pile of assholes but could sweet talk his way through an interrogation at Guantanamo Bay if he had to. You will find the younger more inexperienced salesman to stumble on their words and make mistakes. They're not as quick to answer back and when they do it comes out as a mouthful of shit. I used to enjoy listening to some of the "green peas" from around the corner and all of the stupid stuff they would say.

  This sounds mean, but you want to try to find the biggest coward they allowed to work there. Every store has one. Research the staff online before heading in if possible and should you choose a salesman, make sure you ask for him when you get there. Otherwise, Mr. salesman of the month will start up a conversation with you that you won't have the heart to stop. If you do walk into the showroom without a salesman. Look for that lazy lump on the computer or playing with his phone. Simply because he likely avoids confrontation or he would be outside on the lot or waiting by the phone like he should be. Any salesman I worked with that were distracted easy from their job were definitely not the best salesman we had. Now the guy on the lot telling you to roll down your window, look out! He's goooooood.

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Payment Terms and Equity

  Maybe the last time you went in to trade your vehicle at the car dealership you were sent out with some disappointment. You discovered your car wasn't worth what you thought it was. Worse yet, it wasn't worth what you owed! More often than not this was an obstacle I had to overcome on at least a weekly basis.

  All to often when we originally purchase our vehicles we tend to be attracted to the lowest payment possible. Generally, unless you put money down. This can only be achieved by stretching the term of the loan out to the limit of what banks will do on a certain vehicle. Because of  better warranties and increased reliability and longevity of a car's life nowadays, 84 months has become more available to more people than ever before.
  That is seven years of your life you will be paying for this vehicle. Sure the payment might look pretty sweet but it isn't doing you any favors in the long run. Go up in term, you go up in rate. You go up in rate, you pay more interest. Pay more interest, and you are paying less on the principal balance of the loan. Thus, losing equity. To put it simply. Equity is what it's really worth vs what you owe. You will almost never stay equitable in a vehicle with a 6 or 7 year loan. I really want to say never there but I just threw the almost in there to cover my butt. The truth is there is a good chance you will not stay equitable in a 5 year loan unless you at least pay your tax, title, and license at sign-up. In any of these long term loans you will not see any equity return until the last year or two. Even then, it won't be anything staggering.

  The car market can be pretty wishy washy. Fuel prices can greatly influence the market and so can some bad press. If you have any of these prolonged term loans and you find the market on your vehicle has fallen a year or two after you signed. You will almost certainly be heartbroken. How can you prevent this from happening? Well, you probably won't like this answer. Money down and shorter terms. I have no problem with 5 year loans, they are very common. Just at least pay your fees up front. All too often people roll this right into the loan and when they find out they are $2000 upside down on their car later they're pissed. Uncle Sam got that money. Your dealership didn't get it. It is not part of the price of the car, just remember that.


  While most people cannot do this, or they don't really want to I should say. Put some money down and take out no more than a 5 year loan. 36 and 48 month terms I highly recommend. In the case of these your payment may be higher but you will remain equitable even without putting money down. 72 and 84 months is a long time to pay on a piece of metal folks. Don't let the things you own, own you.

  On the other hand maybe equity is not a concern for you. If you have no intentions of trading the vehice before you pay it off or you know you will be keeping the vehicle for the duration of the loan then I say go for it.This is a difficult thing for anyone to truly foresee going into an extended length loan term though. Just bear in mind you are going to pay a significant more amount of interest in the long run.

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Monthly Payment and the Fine Print

  Especially as an Internet Manager I frequently got a phone call regarding the "$XXX a month" lease or purchase specials. These can be seen on television or in the newspaper ads frequently. I can assure you that if it sounds like an incredible deal, it's probably been hyped up the best it can while covering their legal asses.

  In almost any of these circumstances these payments are contingent on some criteria conveniently listed in tiny print at the bottom of a newspaper ad, quickly flashed at the end of a commercial, or very quickly read by a narrator. This is the part they don't actually want you to read or hear. It's a marketing strategy, simply put. Is it wrong? We'll call it misleading. They just want that payment to jump out at you enough for you to stop down at the dealership, where they just schmooze you through the rest of it from there.

  No fine print you say!? Can this happen? It has and I have seen it happen. It is very easy for a dealership to dismiss it as a typo (as in the case I saw it truly was) and apologize. In the case I witnessed the girl threw a fit in the middle of the showroom and walked out shouting she was going to sue. Well, car dealerships get sued on a regular basis and usually have a pretty fantastic legal team. Blow it off and take your business elsewhere if this should happen to you. Otherwise, it just won't be worth your trouble in the end.

  In most all cases if it looks like a great payment or lease special the terms listed to get to that payment will almost always include some sort of theoretical amount of money as a down payment, excludes tax, and your credit is impeccable. This is not to say that the special is not good by no means though. They're just painting a scenario to get to that payment. A scenario most people can't do. The reality is most consumers do not want to pay any out of pocket at signing. While it is a very smart thing to do, it just isn't any fun and it kind of takes that "good deal" feeling away from the whole process to most people I think.

  The lesson? There is nothing magical in the car business that let's you buy $20K plus cars for $200 a month without some hitch. Look for those terms! Make a call to the dealership if you need them clarified. The last thing you need is going for a ride in a car you decided you love, to only find out that you need to cough up $5000 to get the payment you thought you would.

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The Car Buying Services

  I had the pleasure of dealing with a few of these services over the years. Services of which play the role of the "good guy" when it comes to you buying your next car. From a marketing perspective it's absolutely brilliant. I mean, directly playing off of the general public hatred toward car dealerships and the sleazy stigma of a dealer? Pure poetry but it's also not very nice and really just throws them right into the same bag as the car dealer. I think you could really debate the legitimacy of such a service because in the end you are still going on the same thing, some other guy's word.

  In my opinion you are just adding a second salesman to the deal. Now TWO guys wanna get paid instead of one. Generally I believe there is a flat fee for these services and one in particular told me he got paid $500 per sale for the service. I can also say that in most all circumstances they seemed quick to form an "alliance" with me once they were sure I had what they needed.

  They are supposed to get a car for you at a price you wouldn't be able too, right? Really all they are doing is playing the good cop and since this is a car negotiating service it is very easy for them to find out truly what that customer can afford and where they want to be. They automatically have the buyers trust so the buyer pours their heart out to them on how much they can really afford. If the negotiator sees he may not be able to satisfy the expectations once again he is trusted so it is easier for him to educate and "bump" the buyers expectations. Basically they get given answers from the buyer that I had to pry for and more or less share that with someone like me over the phone when the negotiating happened. Then based on research you or I could find we would feel each other out and ultimately work up a deal. I almost always felt like the people could have gotten a just as good if not better deal had they just came in and did it themselves. The deals were never bad but they were never amazing either.

  The point is if it's a good deal you are after. You are just adding a middle man and paying for it. If you do your research well, there is no tool available to them that isn't to you. They still have to negotiate too and it's more likely they will pal up with the store to make their life easier. Just remember there is nothing magical about these negotiators and they are people just like you and me.

  On the other hand. Maybe you don't seek them to save you money. Maybe you work 3rd shift or you are just a very busy person. Perhaps just the general confrontation conflicts with your personality. Maybe you don't even know what you need to buy a car, think of it like having an attorney to guide you through the process. Just remember, prosecutors and attorneys have lunch and sometimes went to school together. I cannot completely take it away from them though. I did some searches and Cartelligent looks very professional and also aid in locating if there is something in particular you cannot find. I am not posting a link because while I do not endorse them, that is just an example of one. I just wanted to point out that I never saw anyone get any spectacular savings using one, and that's excluding what they paid to have the negotiating done.

  Bottom line. Wanna save money......don't waste your money here. If you are one to pay for convenience it makes perfect sense.

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The "Folder"

 With technology being readily available and more affordable than ever. I started seeing more consumers coming in over the years with what I call the "folder." It's your ammunition. Your knowledge and all of the research you have been doing. I have also watched this type of buyer develop a stigma. Hell, I'm not going to lie. My shoulders would drop if I saw one coming my way.
 Look, when you hop out of your car with a folder packed with all that stuff you might as well be waving your middle finger in the air at everyone shouting "you're not going to make any money on me!" We would all mumble "aw shit" and scatter like mice. Does it mean you won't get a good deal? No, not at all. I don't think you'll get as good of service though. I will say what else I have seen though is a customer get themselves lost in their so well prepared folder that they talked themselves out of a good deal. Rather than bringing along every single print out you felt may be useful, compile the things that really matter and keep it in your pocket. Pull it out later after you have worked some numbers.
 Unless you already are dead set on a car you want to keep that salesman giddy and helpfull. Most of all hopeful. Present yourself as a proffessional car buyer, and you have killed their hope right out of the gate and they just want to get it overwith. Some of the smartest consumers I ever had played dumb through most of the process.

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Edmunds.com's "Confessions of a Car Salesman"

Ok if you are looking for any "How to" articles on buying a car chances are you will or already have run into the story from Edmunds.com called "Confessions of a Car Salesman" by "veteran journalist" Chandler Phillips. I watched the video with him and Brian Moody from Edmunds.com hyping this story up and what a joke. First off, as you may have seen me write already in a past blog. I have a very high distaste for Edmunds.com and I will probably further mention that in blogs to come. Why the dislike you ask? Out of all of the consumer resources available not one of them sent me in so many misguided customers with unrealistic expectations. Edmunds.com touts themselves as the online authority when it comes to batting for the customer when really they are just "selling" you as much crap as any other.

 I am going to tell you about a particular instance where a customer came in to buy a new car from me. He had his folder and his print outs and probably said "well Edmund's says" about 20 times while working the deal. After about the 5th time I had heard this I wanted to go find whoever the hell this Edmund guy was and wring his neck. We worked the deal to the BONE, and I mean to the BONE! Couple hundred bucks into hold back and everything. I will do a segment on hold back but in general it is a "buffer" in the invoice figures to cover advertising and other overhead cost. So now that we are down to what I as an employee could buy the car for he still insists that I am to high and "Edmund's says I can buy it for this." I ask for his printout and couldn't do anything but scratch my head as I looked at what I was reading. "What in the hell are they trying to do here and how are they getting away with this?" If I recall we were a grand or so apart from putting a deal together. Turned out that the specs he had chosen were something not even available in our sales region let alone very very limited when we did a national search for one. He had a print out on the most bare bones cars you could get and included a little disclaimer that the destination charge was omitted as well. So my customer, thinking his print out was the gospel and my window sticker was something I must have photoshopped to rip him off took his business elsewhere. That print out warped his mind so much he is probably still looking for a car and this was years ago.

 Now that you have had a little taste of why I don't like Edmund's. let me continue to rip apart this story from "veteran journalist" Chandler Phillips. I don't highlight the words veteran journalist to poke fun a this guy for doing this. I am sure he is a very nice man and is good at being a journalist. I highlighted it to emphasize the first problem I had with this story. Wouldn't it have been wiser on Edmund's part to hire a "veteran car salesman" to have done this story. The second problem I had with the story was immediately they state "we sent in an investigative reporter in for three months to sell cars at a new car dealership." Three months!? Pardon my language, but are you shitting me!? I think about the most I learned in my first three months was the best places to eat for lunch and where to go get rid of it when my body was done with it. Little known fact about the new guy at a car store. Everyone hates you. You're dipping in to their piece of the "pie" and everyone would just assume see you fizzle out and quit. No one is telling you shit! At least not on their own will. The third problem I had with the video was if I was a customer. Nothing would scare me about walking into a dealership more than this video. The video has an erie feel full of black and white "spy" camera shots that present dealerships as if they are a crime scene. While some days at work my job did feel like a crime scene this video was meant to promote a story to give a customer an edge not a bad taste before they got there. I just don't think it was well thought out on their part. One of my favorite parts of the video is where Chandler Philips goes on to mention a lot of the guys he worked with were gang bangers and ex-cops. Ok this is where that sound effect of a record coming to an abrupt stop sounded in my mind. Excuse me!? I never worked with either of these and I probably worked with over 50 associates over the years. What I am trying to say is we don't all live in Los Angeles. I just don't think they thought before they spoke on this one. He then goes on to say at times he thought they were "onto him" and finishes with a comment about most salesman being inexperienced which I don't think can be any further from the truth. Inexperience will send you down one of two paths. One being a complete "natural" at it which at that point no one can really call you inexperienced or the other which is the unemployment line real fast.

 The fact that this was a 3 month investigation kills all of it's credibility to me immediately for the reasons I mentioned before. To say that you are going to blow the lid off of this industry in 3 months couldn't be a bigger insult to a complex business. Sure you can pick up a few industry terms, clever things to say and get the basic idea of how the sales department works but in order to see how the whole "machine" works took me years. You are not going to learn anything about how finance and the "back end" of a deal in that time. At least not enough to really be able to go write a credible story on it. There is way too much to cover and you will not find it in three months. As I had mentioned before I started this blog because after 3 hours of writing I knew I could never conceivably write a short enough ebook on the subject and it was just quickly becoming a book. I will safely say I am going to be writing these articles for months until my mind starts running out of knowledge I can pass on. Like I said nothing against Chandler Phillips for this. I am sure his writing skills would run mine into the ground. I did read the article myself and while there is some useful info I think that I can be quite a bit more thorough and I have a real hard time believing he himself attained all of it in three months. It is Edmunds.com and their "we bat for the consumer" facade they put on is what I have a problem with. I think there are too many car enthusiasts and not enough "car guys" working for Edmunds. Perhaps someday they will see this article and hire me to write a story on the difference between the two. However, until then I am sure they will continue to send folks into stores in flocks with their print outs and false sense of confidence only to leave without a car and thinking every dealer in their region is a crook. Here is a link to promote the story. I hope you find it as entertaining as I do.

Chandler Phillips "Confessions of a car Salesman"

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Is What I do wrong?

 Interestingly enough in the short time this blog has been up. I have received a surprising number of hate mail about what I am doing here. Obviously, from some gentleman and women who work in the industry. I don't respond to them. It's just starting a war neither of us will win.

 So is it wrong that I do this? Not so long as free speech is still a right. I mean selling cars isn't exactly the most honest days work you can find out there itself. You ultimately make the most money on how crafty and dishonest you can be. The truth is that this blog is no different than writing a "how to" on installing a toilet or installing a stereo in your car. They are taking money out of someone's pocket somewhere down the line. You won't see the Plumber's Union or BestBuy employees threatening people online who write and sell these how tos though.

 It's a dirty business. I had never worked in such a cut throat atmosphere in my life both internally and externally with the customer. I learned to live with it for a while but after a while it began to eat at my conscience. I left wanting to fight some fire with some fire. I suppose that is what happens when you give the person in the building with the most computer skills the secrets to the trade and send him out with a bad taste in his mouth. The car business is full of more ass kissers I have ever seen at any job. I am going to be quite honest to say my mouth has gotten me in more shit more than I can remember when I sold cars. I rarely ever held back and said what was wanted to be heard over what needed to be said. There was nothing I enjoyed more than outwitting a high school drop out I worked under and watching the look on his face as he second guessed himself and the rationale he was trying to present to me. I can't stand people who stumbled into the good life and that is a majority of who worked in the car business. It is one of the few industries where you can easily make a 6 figure income without a college education let alone a high school diploma. You get some years under your belt and about any of them will hire you. I didn't grow up like that. I was raised to earn my money, not swindle people out of it.

 My conscience couldn't be more clear about what I am doing. Car sales is a field I am quite knowledgeable on and so is IT and computers. I am merely taking advantage of my knowledge and skills and applying them to free speech and enterprise. This blog is not going to put even the slightest dent in the industry's paycheck as a whole. We just might be taking a few boats and other toys out of a few driveways.

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Easy Way to Cut Through Some Red Tape at a Car Dealer

In the age of information technology we now live in the Internet Sales industry has absolutely blown up for car dealers. Sites like YouTube, social networking sites like Facebook and Twitter , and free classified listings such as Craigslist are making it easier for stores to reach a larger audience than ever before. I myself held this position at one of the stores I worked for and to be honest the amount of inquiries I had to deal with on certain days was quite staggering. It was an extremely fast paced job and for that simple reason I usually had to just "put my best foot forward" when I received an inquiry and just hope. Not to mention that if they were contacting me about a vehicle I had it was fairly safe to assume they were doing the same thing with other stores. As a result of this I very seldom jacked with or tried to play games with anyone on the price of the car if they asked. This was especially true on the new cars. Dealers own new cars for the same money and getting price quotes online for a new car quickly turns into a battle between stores of which one is going to take a $50 deal. It is probably the best way to pit stores against each other on new cars. Now I would often get questioned by upper management when I needed our "best price" on whether or not they were coming in. It took some haggling on my part usually with my manager but I usually got the job done. After all, if the Internet manager cannot give you a reason to physically come in. There is no chance they are going to sell you a car. You will also frequently find that the price you see on a dealership's website may be different than the number coming out of the salesman's mouth out on the lot. Salesman generally carry a price sheet where the sale price is listed for every car but if he is a real savvy salesman he may quote you a number $1,000 or possibly more over that. If he is good at this. I can assure you his manager absolutely loves him.

 So what have we learned? Deal with an Internet Manager at a high volume store and he is going to likely going to give you his best shot first or at least close to it. He is short on time and his time is money. He knows how much competition he is up against and wants any deal he can get. No matter how small.

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Cash as a Negotiator

 From time to time I would get the buyer who was say something like "see if your manager will take (dollar amount) cash?" Maybe you heard dad or grandpa say this way back in the day but it isn't even worth mentioning these days. Before the days of technology we now live in. Where money has just become another number in a hard drive. Throwing the word "cash" into an offer was definitely a negotiating tactic for the buyer. However, because of wire transfer of funds it is likely that if you were to finance that the store will see their money in the bank as fast if not faster than if you paid cash. Let alone they would rather not even count out $25,000 and have it in the building. To be quite honest, the impact "cash" had in negotiating a car deal is the opposite of what it used to be. Dealers make quite a bit on the "back end" (interest rate profit, extended warranties,etc) and they would RATHER hear you are financing. Finance officers who figure your rates make profit off of the interest points they add above the "buy rate" (their "cost" of the rate) of your loan. For example. They phone into the bank you are financing through and "massage" the loan officer into a nice low buy rate they can add a rate point or two to make themselves a nice little profit and keep things looking good on paper for you while still making that financial institution some good money too.

 Is it fair to say the "cash" offer never works anymore. Not at all. It would all depend on where you are buying from. If you are at a small, shady, one man operation corner lot and the owner is ready to go have a drink after work on a Friday afternoon. "Cash" may perk that guy's ears but even the smallest of stores still make their money on financing as well. As far as a private purchase goes. It means everything for obvious reasons. The megastore that makes millions a year off of interest could care less.

 So the moral of the story is "cash" = less potential profit on the back end of the deal . With this said. Throwing them a bone during the negotiating of the price of the car that you may (even though you really aren't) be financing could make them ease up on the price of the car a bit in hopes of making money off of you on the back end. I have worked plenty of deals where my manager dropped his pants on the price of the car more than he normally would because we knew they were finacing. Using this outdated tactic is most likely to just make you sound as if you have not bought a car for 30 years.

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To Trade or Not to Trade... That is the Question

 Dealers frequently use what is called The Black Book when determining the trade value of your vehicle. Or at least reference it I should say. The Black Book is a little pocket book about the size of a calculator and is a weekly publication that dealers frequently subscribe to. Chances are if you look around in a used car manager or general manager's office you may spot one of these tucked away on the desk somewhere. Nowadays in addition to that they will also reference such sources online such as Manheim.com or Ove.com . These are auction sites that the dealers have access to so they can see what vehicles like yours are currently bringing at these mysterious auctions you seem to always be hearing about.

 Let me start off by saying you will most likely NEVER get what you really want for your trade in at a dealership. They may be able to "show" you what you are wanting for your trade in if they have you locked in on the right car. Which is one with a substantial markup that is capable of absorbing some of that money you want for your trade. There is a good chance the salesman will even use the word "show" when he is discussing your trade in value. Which since I don't sell cars anymore looking back, I was an idiot to ever say it. Let me explain. When a salesman first appraises your car he is going to typically fill out what is called an appraisal form or ACV form. This form is not meant for your eyes to see after the car has been appraised. The salesman may go over it with you in regards to equipment and any of your personal information they may want to put on it such as names and contact info but after that, you'll probably never see it again. ACV is always going to be abbreviated on any form that refers to it but if that store has any brains they wouldn't put it on any paperwork at all the customer sees. The last store I worked for did but most people don't know what it means or they just assume it doesn't have anything to do with the sales figures. ACV stands for "actual cash value." The number to which your car is actually worth to that store and the actual dollar amount that it will hit the books for after the sale.

Is it time to trade in that car?

 So what does ACV have to do with your car deal. It is very simple actually. I am going to use some theoretical numbers and explain this very easily. Lets say you are buying a $25,000 car. In this case we are going to say its used. We will say they own that car for $21,500 . $3,500 markup. You have a trade in that you would be happy getting $12,000 for. However, you did your research and you also think you can buy the car you are wanting for $23,500. So you want $12,000 for yours and want to pay no more than $23,500 for theirs. Salesman then appraises your car and he sits down with the figures. He's gonna low-ball you to test the waters. He may say something like "We're going to show you $10,500 for your trade and we will knock $500 off the car. That what you were thinking?" You say "No , not even close." He then says "Well, what were you hoping for? Is it the price of the car? Is it the trade?" This is where you laugh and say "both." This is where the chess game begins. What you are not seeing at this point is the ACV of your car. Now I wouldn't suggest ever saying "so what's my ACV?" They will just think you're a jerk and be cynical towards you for it most likely. You can keep your eye open or listen for it though and keep is as a silver bullet for later if things don't go as planned. By all rights your ACV card may say $11,000. In this case he is holding back on you. Some guys are incredible at holding back on trade, some rarely if ever do it. They are usually the good guys in the biz. Lets say that your car is worth $11,000 ACV. Based on the numbers he gave you, all he did is discount the car to look like a sweetheart and charged you the discount out of your actual trade in value. That $3,500 markup is still on the table. "What could we do to earn your business today?" he then says. You then say "Well I was hoping for $12,000 for mine and I have seen the same car you are selling for $23,500." He will likely then give you the old "Let me see what I can do" and go to his manager for rehashing.  This time he comes back with "The manager said he would put $500 more into your car and sell the car for $24,000 , he's really just trying to put this deal together." Ok so we're getting close. They are truly giving you what ACV (even though you don't know what ACV is) and you are within $500 of where you want to be on the car you are purchasing. However, with the numbers we are using there is still $2,500 on the table. Pretty typical used car profit really. Now I cannot tell you what they are going to own a certain car for. That is impossible. Is it wrong for them to make a profit? Absolutely not. Is it wrong for them to make big profits for overpricing cars and "dragging" (industry term) trades. Hell yes. In this case, with the numbers given you are $1,500 from where you truly want to be. On a five year loan that could be about $30 a month. At this point if you play your cards right. There is probably a good shot you could still get what you want. Most dealers will do a $1000 deal just to roll a unit. Sometimes less if it is an aged unit they are paying interest on and they just want the damn thing gone. If there are tumbleweeds blowing through the showroom that day that can be a big factor too. You just have to decide how much hardball you want to play. They can still "show" you that $12,000 for your trade. It just means they are getting a profit of only $1,500 when selling the car for $24,000 with an ACV of $11,000.

  I want to clear up a bit of what I think is a misconception about trading cars in. At least depending on what state you are in. I heard people say to me a lot in regards to trades "well, my neighbor said he would give me $15,000 for my car and you are only giving me $14,500." Now bear in mind, I sold in Illinois. Which means at a rate of 6.25% you won't pay that tax on the $14,500 going toward your purchase. This is a tax savings of $906.25. So at this point you are actually, in theory getting $406.25 more for your car than Joe down the street wants to give you. People overlook this all to often and it can usually be to a persons benefit to trade if it is worth a substantial amount and the tax savings is high. There are a few states that do not offer trade credit. At this time I know what they are but this post will be up for years and that could change so see if your state offers it before you head in. Also, same thing with tax in general. Some states don't collect on car deals period so please do your research on this.

  Does that car of yours need some work? Maybye you cracked a bumper skin at the supermarket or you have not gotten around to change that pesky 02 sensor keeping your check engine light on. Check to see what the dealer will give you for it and see how much they are penalizing your vehicle before you go dumping a bunch of money into it. All dealers will take any mechanical or superficial repairs into consideration when taking your vehicle on trade. Dealers have their resources for making all of these repairs. Internally within the store or not. In the end they get repairs made for as little money out of their pocket as they can. Don't rack your brain over small issues with your trade-in. There is a good chance that dealer can bring it up to par cheaper than you or I could go have it done for. Just don't put $3000 into your car to see a higher return when you trade it in. It most likely will not happen this way.
 The best I can say is do your research on NADA.com and KBB.com and decide before you go in what you are willing to pay for their car or receive for your trade. Averages between the two are reasonable expectations from what I saw over the years. Also, remember these salesman low-ball you. So when they ask what you want for your car, HIGH-ball them! If you really want $12,000, say $12,500 or $13,000. Low-ball them on their car too. Sure maybe they will chuckle or perhaps you may offend them a bit. Salesman have pretty tough skin so it isn't likely. The bottom line is it doesn't hurt to ask. They make their big money on people who don't ask. The absolute worst that is going to happen is they will say no. If the money is there and they want the deal, they'll do it. Period. Below is a list of general pointers that I hope you also find helpful. Also, if I lost you in the figures at all on this lay it out on some paper to perhaps help you to understand it better. Gosh, I LOVE giving this stuff away. Please pass it on.

• Best times to put a good deal together are when business is slow. Store owners hate to have a "no sale" day. If you are the only one there you are in the spotlight and that manager is hungry for a deal no matter how small.
• If you cannot reach an agreement in regards to trade, this will blow their mind. Ask them if they call other stores for "buy bids." Car dealerships have relationships with each other and another store that carries "your model" of car may put more into the ACV. In this case the store you are buying from is still taking your car in on trade but they have another store lined up to buy it for the "buy bid" amount. The fact that you know what a "buy bid" is will send  warning shot over the store that this isn't your first rodeo. Chances are they may just cave in and step it up on your car even if they do get "buy bids" from other stores.
• That car you have had your eye on has been there for months. Ask for a carfax and make sure people aren't afraid of it for some reason. Dealers usually don't want cars on their lot for more than 60 days especially when they are floor planned. Floor planned is when the dealer's bank owns the car and they pay interest on them everyday. Trading in towards an "aged unit" could get you a really good deal.
• Last days of the month or even last day of the year could get stores to step it up on trade. Dealers live by the month and they want as many units on the books as possible at the end of those months.
• Trades are seasonal. Don't trade in your convertibles in the winter. They will bring below book values. Same with 4X4 bringing all the money with a foot of snow on the ground. You get the picture.
• They're just cars. Unless it is something really rare that is bringing good money. Don't let anyone push you into a deal that doesn't feel good. There are plenty of Camrys, Tauruses, and Impalas to go around.

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The Infamous 4-square Sales Tactic

I was introduced to this at the second store I had worked for. It is just about what it sounds like. It is a deal worksheet divided into 4 areas with all your personal info written on top to look "official" lol. Typically the areas are divided into sales price of the car you are buying, value of your trade, how much money you are putting down, and what you can expect your monthly payment to be based on all of those figures. I am going to be honest and say that the sole purpose of this tactic is to make your head spin with all these numbers and literally break your heart. It is fully intended to shock the hell out of you and get any numbers out of your head you were hoping to do before you walked in the door. In a nutshell, make you feel as if your expectations to this point have been unreal.  It is also designed to mentally prepare a person with an inflated payment before they walk into the finance office to make any upselling easier when they get there.

 Now that you have seen these figures and you have a big lump in your throat like you are 6 and didn't really get what you wanted for Christmas. This is where the salesman goes over the figures with you and says things like "what were you hoping for?" There is still plenty of money on the table at this point. After all he just gave you his first proposal. Now that he has broken your heart he is going to play good cop/bad cop . He is going to poke and prod at you and try to figure out which one of those numbers really makes you tick. What I mean is. Generally there is an aspect of the deal that is most important to the customer such as trade in value or no money down. If you really want to put a salesman between a rock and a hard place at this point. Tell him you don't like any of the numbers lol. They are only going to manipulate the one that makes you happy anyway. In their defense though you cannot have it both ways. Trades are worth what they are worth and they can only sell a car for so little.

 What you need to do is look at your personal situation. Maybe you don't even have a trade. Maybe you are paying cash. We're down to 2 squares already now which really kills the tactic dead in its tracks. Truthfully, as long as our FICA score isn't a 450 and you truly know you have the ability to buy. You can tell them straight up how you want to see the numbers. If they have a problem with this then they are obviously so successful they don't need your sale and you probably don't want to buy a car from these folks anyway.

 Personally I recommend a good old white sheet of paper or their "other" worksheet for people like you lol. I am going to give you one piece of information at this time now which will allow you to tell them to leave the payment end of it out until you get into the finance office. With today's rates and sufficient credit you can expect to pay about $100 a month for every $5000 you finance on a 5 year note. Give or take $20/month .Example: financing around $20,000 you could expect to pay in the neighborhood of $400 a month on a 5 year loan. With that said, you can be sure you are looking at vehicles you can afford now so they don't use payment as leverage on you. With that said. Don't forget your fees as well. If you are wanting to be around $400 a month make sure you are looking at a car you think can be "bought" for around $18,000-$18,500 if fees come to $1500-$2000. Fees vary from state to state so get a general idea of these before you head in. We are at the sales desk at this point and we just want to hash out the price of the "car" itself. We are not interested in inflated payment figures full of gap insurance, extended warranties, and service plans. As for the money down, you can decide this as well when you get to the finance office. That's your business until you sign.

 So now that we have thrown "payment" out of their little scheme. We are just down to the price of the car and the value of the trade or maybe just the price of the car. Isn't it amazing how much the whole thing has been simplified just by taking the payment out? This is not what they want trust me lol. At this point though it will take some of your own research to determine fair values on either the car you are trading or the car you are buying. As a general rule. A new car you can typically expect around a 10% markup on a sticker price. This excludes factory incentives. If you are buying used get the average retail values between KBB and NADA based on condition and this should be fairly close to what you can expect to pay. If you can get it lower than that you're doing good. If you can't get to the averages between these two books though and strike a deal there is a possibility they own this car for more than they should. Up to you at this point if you want to look elsewhere or buy theirs. If it is something unique you can expect it to bring above book value though. In regards to trades do the same thing. Get collective average of both books and be sure you booking it as a trade. Trade and retail numbers are different for obvious reasons. Also, make sure you be honest with yourself about your vehicles condition. I seen all to often that the customer was a bit biased toward their trade. I myself would have to probably catch myself on this one. That line in the book values that reads EXCELLENT at the top. Well, that's more or less show room condition and about less than 5% of the vehicles out there will really qualify for this title. However, make sure they are playing by this rule as well. If they are showing you the best book numbers with their printout they made trying to justify their price make sure the car lives up to it. If he is claiming it's in excellent condition except for that little bumper scuff. Guess what buddy, it ain't in excellent condition.

 Now that we have broken it down to 2 (and maybe 1 in your case) simple figures we just want a difference number before fees. In other words. What are you going to sell me that car for with my trade? There is no smoke and mirrors at this point. If there car is $22000 and you think you can buy it for $20000 and you have a trade you are wanting $10000 then a difference of $10000 is what you are shooting for. It's fairly simple.

 One more thing I wanted to touch on quickly before I go is vehicle payoff. I plan to do a segment on this later but I want to touch on it so you know how it applies to a deal like this. Call the financial institution before you go work a deal anywhere. If they are a 4-square store or even not they will pry at this one to try to appease the "payment" issue. The best thing you can do on this is play dumb and factor the payoff number in your head into it when you are working the deal. For example. I will use the figures from the last paragraph. Lets say you worked a deal down to difference of $10000 and your trade-in payoff is $8300. Fees will be based on the $10000 (that could vary state to state) and your payoff will then be added to the total. So you are back up into the $20k neighborhood at this point.

 I would say the best advise to taking away a stores 4-square ammo away is to be vague about your finances (money down and payoff info) and don't express concern of payment. I have given you what types of payment you can expect for certain dollar amounts spent on 5 year terms and I can assure you that as long as the finance office does not have them loaded with "extras" and your credit is substantial it will be close enough to what I have said given the rate is competitive. If you should want to further payment estimates for different length terms or to play with different rates Bankrate.com has a wonderful payment calculator on their website. I hope you found this helpful and I hope it save some of you folks some money. Stay tuned, and I will post more of these.

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